Married for Good - The Gospel Coalition

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Vanessa Hawkins

That sharpening each other and that sanctifying each other is real. The outcome is beautiful. The Lord is at work in it, but it is not just a happily ever after. After I do, there’s real work that has to be done.

Melissa Kruger

Hi, friends. Welcome to this episode of the deep dish. I’m Melissa Krueger, and I am here with my co host, Courtney doctor, and we are here with two of our good friends, Jen Wilkin and Vanessa Hawkins. We’re so glad you guys are here. Hey, glad to be here. Thanks for joining us. And today we are talking about the subject of marriage. I feel like I should say that and but I’ll ask you in just a second how long you’ve been married. But between all of us, I know we’re all 25 plus. So at this table is over 100 years of marriage.

Vanessa Hawkins

I hadn’t really thought about it like that, Melissa

Melissa Kruger

so Vanessa, let’s, let’s just go around the table. How long you been married? Tell Yeah. How long have you even been together? Yeah?

Vanessa Hawkins

Oh, wow, together, that’s a whole different situation. But married, definitely. 28 years of marriage, we’ve been, well, we’ve been friends since third grade. We’ve met on the playground. Oh, I know it sounds so idyllic, but he was a third grade boy. It wasn’t as idyllic as well. You chased him. I did Chase him because he called me names,

Melissa Kruger

love at first sight. Love at first sight. Great Love.

Vanessa Hawkins

There you go. There you go. So, yes, for a very, very long time, we’ve been friends for a very long time, and that is, of course, ebbed and flowed as we have matured. But

Jen Wilkin

yeah, what about y’all we are hurtling toward 32 we Yeah, our 31st anniversary was last June, and we met in college. We were we met in 1991 started dating in 1992 we got married in 1993

Courtney Doctor

Wow. Okay, yeah, so by you well, almost 35 years. But I’ve known him. I guess we start. I was 18 when I met him, and We dated for four years before we got married. So I guess we’re going on knowing each other. I do my math, Melissa, 3839 years of knowing. It’s just, it’s crazy to think about that, and how much longer I’ve known him than I didn’t Yeah, you know, that’s what’s just, it’s kind of

Melissa Kruger

that was a weird moment when we got to that point. Yes, exactly. Oh, I’ve known you and been with you longer. I remember when

Courtney Doctor

we crossed into four digits of number of days we’d been dating, so like, at three and a half years, over 1000 days, and I remember that, and I was like, 1000 days I’ve known him,

Melissa Kruger

or like a movie type. Nobody wants me saying that it’s okay. And we met, we, it’s funny. We met 92 but we’ve been married 27 years. And, yeah, I guess we, we, we had a long stretch figuring out if, if this was going to work. So there was five years before that. So I guess that’s 32 Wow, years of knowing Yeah, yeah.

Courtney Doctor

Well, going to be when we’re only 39

Melissa Kruger

that’s hard to believe. So let me start with this. What do you know now about marriage, or just, yeah, what do you know now that you didn’t know when you first got married

Courtney Doctor

how to cook? I could make pancakes and split pea soup. That’s when I came into the marriage.

Vanessa Hawkins

Your game strong now. Thanks. Your game strong. That’s hilarious. Yeah, wow. I think just I’m so much better at conflict resolution. Yeah, I was really conflict diverse, and I know nobody who knows me now believes that, but I was, I was really conflict diverse, and it was just fearful control. I wanted to make sure I had my argument down before I would enter a conversation, and I was worried about saying the wrong things and wrecking my marriage. And so I think I was really fearful, and I avoided conflict at all cost, in very unhealthy ways. And so now I know that conflict, you know, is not necessarily bad, it can be a very good and healthy thing, and it’s a normal thing. So

Melissa Kruger

I may have learned how to be more conflict avoid it, because I probably came in with, like, we got to work on all of this right now, because I got to get you right in. So I’m

Courtney Doctor

like, I gotta fix you now, waiting around

Speaker 1

with that for 30 years. I admire your courage. I admire your courage.

Melissa Kruger

I was encouraged selfishness and lack of understanding.

Jen Wilkin

I don’t know. I think a lot of what I know now is like what I would describe as faith becoming sight, like I knew there were things I thought would be true about Jeff that now I know are true about Jeff, like so deeply and but I think. That one of the things that I understand about him, like something that I would have thought was a weakness, that now I see as a strength, is that in a crisis, he is able to compartmentalize, like he just, I’m like, why are you not responding emotionally? And I’m not a super emotional responder to things, but he just is, like, all business when the wheels are coming off. And I used to think, you’re, you know, you’re repressing something, and now I’m like, No, we need you to do that in those moments, because he will process his emotions, but he doesn’t do it in in the moment of crisis. And so I have learned that that is a strength

Courtney Doctor

that over time, that thought of faith becoming sight, like what you hope, what you see actually is, and that’s part of longevity in marriage, right? We get to sort of see that they

Jen Wilkin

really are. Well, I have kind of a running joke that we get married on very little information, you know? I mean, you just do, and it really is a leap of faith in so many ways and then. But I do think that how you respond when you begin to learn more about that person is a big test of character, because your initial thought is, well, everything that’s not like me is or at least for me, everything that’s not like me is something to be suspicious of or to criticize or fix instead of Wait a minute, maybe the reason we’re doing this together is because you’re really good at this, and I’m not, and vice versa. Well,

Melissa Kruger

not only do we have differences between us, I think we could probably, most of us could probably say we feel like we’ve been married maybe to six or seven different husbands and we’ve been different wives along the way. My

Speaker 1

husband’s had a lot of different wives, maybe this week, but they all look like you this week, and they all look like just

Melissa Kruger

like you. Yeah. And to speak to that, how has your marriage gone through ebbs and flows? Because here’s the thing, we’re not static. They’re not who we married. We’re not who they married. And how have you watched that ebb and flow in your marriage? And how can that be hopeful and encouraging at some points? But how have you seen the ebb and flow?

Vanessa Hawkins

Yeah, I think probably some of the sweetness of those changes is actually having him see things in me that I didn’t see in myself, and call those things out, and then, and then, you know, nurture them to grow. You know, I think about like, for instance, even moving to Georgia was because I had finished seminary, and there was this job opportunity that was going to inconvenience the entire family and him more than anybody else, and I didn’t even consider applying for it. And he’s saying, you’ve got to apply for that, because that’s all your primary gifts. You’ve got to do that. And I never even considered inconveniencing him. And he thought, you’ve got to go do that. You’ve got to at least try for that. And so I think some of the beauty has just been what’s been called out in those seasons the difference what’s been encouraged, what’s been nurtured. For me, yeah, and

Courtney Doctor

I think culturally, we we hear that idea that, you know, people change, and that becomes a reason to part ways, right? That becomes like, that’s no longer the person I married and so and I’ve changed, and I’m a different person. So, you know, this wasn’t what we signed up for. But the reality is the way the Lord uses that. I mean, when you, you know, had somebody describe a pastor describe marriage as a crucible, where you put two very rough stones in, and you screw the lid on tight, and that lid never comes off, and then you’re jostled around. And I mean, you are, you are striking, you know, flames like it is, but the rough edges are worn off, and so part of it is even as you see them change, and as you change, trusting in the goodness and sovereignty of God in all of those things. So that, right, you see that God is working this thing out, and and the way he’s changing might be hard, but it’s good. Or the way I’m changing, the way I’m seeing it differently, I trust that it’s good for him and for me. And so it’s that idea of the fact that we’re different people is beautiful, and it’s not a reason to say, well, this isn’t what I signed up for. It actually is what we signed up for, kind

Vanessa Hawkins

of like what Jim was saying, that different basically isn’t bad. It’s just, you know, and celebrating those differences, yeah, that’s I

Jen Wilkin

have to show my cards just a little bit Jeff and I always say, Don’t come to us for marriage advice. Like, I wasn’t even sure why you were gonna put me on this one. Because we, we just have had very little conflict. We just, like, I can’t even count on one hand, the number of times that I can think of having, like, a big fight. And I think it’s we’re very similar, and we had a friendship for, you know, for a year before we dated. And so for us, I would say that, like, we, I don’t see, like, Oh, I’ve had, you know, several different versions of Jeff. I’ve been married to, but what I do see is seasons where we were extremely busy, like with parenting, or we were, you know, where we weren’t spending as much time together and having to reconnect when the season let up and like, being like, Oh, how do we? I remember we took a trip seven years ago where I was speaking, and we went to Ireland, and it was like, do we have to talk to each other the whole time? Like we weren’t even sure how to have a time just the two of us alone together, because we’d had kids and whatever for so many years, and so I don’t feel a lot of the like change in like I in like, You’re a different person than I remember marrying in a lot of ways, like he’s exactly who I married, but we have definitely had to find each other again as the seasons of life have have pulled us either apart or just, you know, had us so busy that we weren’t spending as much overlap in our time. Well, let’s talk

Melissa Kruger

about that in, you know, in any marriage, you do have to nurture it, encourage it. I mean, even, I mean, I know you would say, yeah, we’ve had a pretty easy marriage. I mean, I think that’s how you’ve had

Jen Wilkin

a very easy marriage, yeah. But I’ve told you guys, like, I feel like that was a shock absorber for some of the difficulties I was going to have in ministry. Seriously,

Melissa Kruger

the Lord gave me conflict elsewhere,

Jen Wilkin

my difficult marriage has been to the local church, yeah, yeah. And yeah, and I, you know. And that doesn’t mean that everybody in my local church was a villain at all. It just means that being a woman in ministry is its own set of challenges. Yes, yes, yes.

Melissa Kruger

And so, how do we nurture you know it. And I think that happens even in good, healthy marriages, there’s sometimes there are things you’re doing, right, naturally, yes, that’s

Jen Wilkin

how I would describe what we had as we naturally. We had overlap in our interests, yes. And then what, I think some of it too, is like, his best friend growing up was his sister, you know, and I had four brothers. And so a lot of the challenges that people meet when it’s just like, who are? You know, you’ve never had a had to live with a guy before. Maybe, you know, like, I was like, I only have to live with one guy. This is amazing, you know? And so I think that was another big thing that gave it like, I don’t we. That’s the other thing is, we can’t take credit. It’s not like, Oh, we’re so amazing at marriage that it just went well. It is the Lord’s gift. And a lot of it is like personality and home of origin and all of that. And

Melissa Kruger

some people it’s even with kids and all, yeah, sometimes you just have circumstances that are easier, and the Lord does that for other reasons, right? So that, and you’ve talked about this so well, and sometimes that comes with a lot of responsibility.

Jen Wilkin

It does. I think we had a lot of we’ve talked, and the kids will even say this, it’s like we’ve had so much relational wholeness in our family that it’s a gift, but it’s also an obligation, an obligation in the most positive sense of the world. Word, it means that we have additional relational capacity to extend and and so we’ve, we’ve tried to live that. And it’s people, you know, people would say, Well, why? It feels like, almost like, you’re introducing difficulty into a family that doesn’t have it. And it’s like, well,

Courtney Doctor

yeah, we feel like we have

Jen Wilkin

a gift. We have it, yeah. But I also say that we don’t look at marriages that have had conflict and think What’s the matter with them? Like everybody has relational conflict. It’s just not in our marriage that we have it, yeah, yeah,

Melissa Kruger

right. So what have you all done to nurture, encourage your marriage along the way? Yeah, strengthen it. We all need it. Does take effort or it goes. It can atrophy, yeah,

Vanessa Hawkins

yeah, absolutely. I think those times for us have been most tested by external factors. It’s been loss of parents and seasons of, you know, parents being sick, or, you know, or even birth of children. Those things naturally test. You know, how you are accustomed to giving each other attention, and it just requires just some some changes and so but I would say that like, one of those changes has been my husband having to learn how to care for a grieving Vanessa, like when I’ve lost my dad or lost my mom, or my learning how he responds in extreme loss. Those things are challenging, and they’re challenging for a while, because grief, it just takes a while. It just takes a while to work through. And it helps to to deeply love each other, because you have such patience and such kindness, it helps to be committed to praying for each other, because you know, when a person’s grieving, they just need a level of tenderness, and there’s just they’re not themselves. They’re not the person you married, necessarily, but that

Melissa Kruger

what you’re saying right there. I think when they’re not themselves, I mean, I think my in my flesh I go to will let me remind you of who she but what I love, what you said is you pray for them like that’s such a way to nourish your marriage. Right, yeah? Like, I think sometimes we think we’re the Holy Spirit for them and and sometimes I think people do this with their children, but I think you can’t even do it with your spouse if you’re that way. That reflects poorly on me, so I need to make sure to change you, yeah, but, but I just love what you said. Yeah, prayed for him, and it helps us.

Vanessa Hawkins

You have a practice of that, yeah, yeah. And that is one of the things we regularly do, is we pray together. And like, right now I’m traveling, he travels a lot at night, before bed, we connect wherever we are, and we pray together. And that is the kindness of the Lord hasn’t always been that way, but it’s one of those way. I mean, it’s, it’s one of those ways we manage the travel we and we stay connected. You know, we’re praying for each other, you know, wherever we are in the world. So I love

Courtney Doctor

that. Well, I just feel just for the person listening who doesn’t have that kind of natural compatibility, the it’s more the external circumstances. You know, we have shared. We were not believers. My husband and I, when we got married, and it was rough. I mean, it was an although all the personality tests will say this is the worst possible combination. We laugh all the time about it. It’s like, Oh, my word. And so we have had to intentionally work really hard. We’ve had to, you know, we’ve done counseling, we’ve which I highly recommend, we have been so intentional, because as our love of God has grown, there have been times we’ve looked at each other and said, we love God so much, and we love his word. Why is this so hard? Because we think as spiritual maturity happens, or as we love, yeah, and so we’ve really had to, but I’ll tell you, the beauty of it is we also can now look at each other and say, this thing that we have worked so hard at is so precious to us. It is valuable because of what we’ve poured into it. And so I like that we have different experiences around the table, because there is because I think people listening, they come from very different experiences. You know, I don’t actually know that many people. I have. One dear friend who would I could say, I think her marriage is really easy. I think most people are kind of in the middle where it’s like, there’s a little bit of work, and I’m like, I’m like, I’m actually on the side where it takes a lot of work and and

Unknown Speaker

that should have had you sit there and

Courtney Doctor

exactly kind of go in a spectrum. But I think that that’s part of the beauty of it is, is as the Lord is at work in each one of us and in our marriage, he does good things. I mean, that’s, you know, there was a subtitle of a book years ago. What if marriage is meant to make you whole rather than happy? And that was, I was like, Oh, that kind of shed some light on how I was going to lean into this thing. And yeah, my husband and I also laugh. We’re like, you have been the single greatest tool of sanctification. He tells me that with all love and endure, yeah,

Melissa Kruger

Courtney, I think that’s a really good point. And one practice, I had to come to realize that I was doing wrong, that was not nurturing our marriage. Was how we would use date nights. So we are not very good at quality time in general, we were both in ministry, and it felt very spiritual and holy to spend all of your life pouring out on others. So I would say we didn’t do a good job of just taking time to reconnect with one another, and then when we would I thought it was a great use of date night to talk about all of our issues. I am a fun in fact, I can remember this restaurant, and it had, like a little, like you were in a little booth, and every time the waitress came, I was like crying, because we have, you know, like we I’m just like discussing all of the things that this was my moment. Yeah, so I got to do this, and

Jen Wilkin

you had a list.

Unknown Speaker

He probably

Jen Wilkin

had a list,

Melissa Kruger

just like just like, I thought we were okay, got the proof right here? Oh, come on. But it was, it was an older woman once said to me, you should really use your date nights to have fun and reconnect. And it was this, like, it can just be. And I realized, especially in the years of young children, we had kind of forgotten how to have fun together. Everything about became about hey, are you giving them a bath, or am I giving them a bath? Everything became about work, working together. And then the fact that ministry was so big a part that was even working together. And so it was this huge thing. And we actually had this season where someone was living with us at one point for a little while, a young a woman, and so she would babysit once a week for us. That was kind of her, you know, that was her contribution to us. And it changed our marriage. And I think I was living it was this, really, this pride thing. We don’t need a date night every week. That’s so silly. And we didn’t continue the practice after she left, but we both looked at each other and we realized that made a big difference. Well,

Courtney Doctor

it’s whatever it takes to remember that you actually like each other. Yeah, and it’s built. It’s honestly building that, that shared memory space that’s huge to just do things together, because it just adds to that, that bonding of shared memories. And

Melissa Kruger

I will say this, financially, we were in some tight spaces, so it was hard to do that. But what I have realized, and I’m totally for counseling, investing in your marriage through date nights, could be cheaper

Unknown Speaker

than Yes, exactly, exactly.

Melissa Kruger

And so just to that, I know everybody’s not in the same financial place, but I would say choosing to put some money aside for that or be creative about that is really worth it for your marriage. And I know that’s hard to do. Like, there are certain seasons where you feel tight at every place, and that can be really, really difficult to do. For

Vanessa Hawkins

a while we were doing date nights with young kids, and I remember we had these three questions we would ask every date night, what are your I thought, What are your thoughts? So it’s like, what’s top of mind? What are your wishes? And then what are you willing to do about it, and so it kept us dreaming together and knowing what was in each other’s hearts, because we had such a limited window to do that. But we couldn’t talk about kids, we couldn’t talk about chores, we couldn’t talk about any and we got it from some marriage counseling type situation, but it really did and improved the quality of our date nights. So I mean, you know, because it is the, you know, every conversation goes back to, you know, okay, so Kayla has this, you know, Thursday, and it’s just where you default in those child rearing years. And so having a script of sorts kind of helped us talk about each other for a little while, until we just kind of defaulted more towards that. So we’ve never

Jen Wilkin

had a practice of date night. But it doesn’t mean that we haven’t had a sense of needing to have shared time. Yeah, I love that. And one of the biggest things about putting the kids to bed was that we got that time almost every night, you know, to just catch up with each other, and then we and then we have so many shared interests we had, you know, we both like to garden, and so it’s like, hey, this weekend, let’s get the yard pulled together. Well, that means the two of us are out there doing that together. Yes, and funny, because all of our hobbies have to do with things that you don’t have to leave your house to do, because we had so many little kiddos for so long.

Courtney Doctor

Are there common marriage platitudes, common marriage advice that you hear that you disagree with, that either hasn’t played out the way you thought it would, or you just know that it’s not great advice when you hear it. I have one, but I want to hear what

Melissa Kruger

you guys think the one I really took to heart, because I thought it was really good advice, and it even is scriptural risk to say, I don’t agree with it, but it’s, don’t let the sun go down on your anger. And so that’s so good, Melissa. What this cause for me was a very, truly legalistic if we let the sun go down on our anger, we’re going we’re headed for divorce. Start

Courtney Doctor

arguing after the sun’s already gone down.

Melissa Kruger

I should have put that in. We get at least the sunrise from

Jen Wilkin

sundown to sun up. I mean hypothetical, hypothetically, asking for a friend, asking for

Melissa Kruger

a friend, and it led to terrible late night fights, and we’re up, and then, if he’s dared, like, lay down and his eyes look like they might be shutting on the pillow at 1am you’re not really in this marriage, right? It

Courtney Doctor

was just well, and the problem seems so much bigger at 11pm than they do at eight morning.

Melissa Kruger

You’re like, I’m really sorry about that. That was stupid, you know, I mean, and so I just am a big believer, actually, and don’t let things simmer for weeks. But you know, like, maybe wait until the morning to discuss it. It was

Courtney Doctor

not a literal interpretation of that versus what you’re saying. Just kind of a general principle, exactly that I don’t let things fester. Yeah,

Melissa Kruger

that I was definitely taking to be I was taking it away literally.

Vanessa Hawkins

Vanessa, what about you? Oh, I think the whole. You know, Disney World of, you know, marriages and brides and princesses and they all lived happily. Ever After has done such a great disservice, because I think after people are married and things, they start having, you know, conflict as they should, because you’ve got two simple people learning how to live together, you know, and you know, in holy matrimony. And it’s just that live happily ever after is hard fought in many cases, in many cases, and so for people to go in with that expectation and to think that they’re not going to have conflict, or if they have conflict, then, man, I’ve married the wrong person. I thought this was my soul mate, but clearly it’s not, because we don’t agree. And so I just think it’s a it’s a bill of goods. When scripture is in this life, you will have tribulation and, and in marriage, you will have tribulation and, and that sharpening each other and that sanctifying each other is real. The outcome is beautiful. The Lord is at work in it, but it is not just a happily ever after. After I do, there’s real work that has to be done.

Courtney Doctor

Yeah, yeah. Jen, do you have another one? Besides? I can think

Jen Wilkin

of two other related together. I remember when I was eight months pregnant, going to a marriage thing at a church in it was not my church. It was in the area in Houston, and the woman who was talking said that you had to stay within five pounds of the weight you were when you got married, otherwise you had married your husband on false pretenses. Oh, wow. And so here I am just huge pregnant, because I didn’t just get pregnant. Yeah, everywhere. And I thought, Oh, dear. And so there was that. But the other messaging that was at that event is something I still hear. I don’t think you hear like the body shaming version. You know what I’m gonna say? I do because that’s what I was going to say. No, no, no. It was that your husband only has you for intimacy, and therefore you need to be available to him whenever he wants intimacy, and that that my wishes were not something to be considered. I’m married to a good man, right? And so this message was not something that devastated my marriage, but we still did. We did have to grapple with it, because the expectation was that that’s my job, and that I was preventing him from falling into sin. That being that role, that’s exact

Courtney Doctor

so for me, it’s just a slight twist on that of if you keep them happy in the bedroom, in the kitchen, then you are safeguarding your marriage. And I’m like, first of all, that is reducing the man to animal behavior. I said he’s not fully human. Yes, it also creates fear based sex, which is not what is intended, and it does not account for a, what I would say, a non traditional difference in sex drives, right, right? We put all of that on the man, and then I know so many women who are like, Well, where does that leave me? Because even back to your point, right? And so that, and I hear it all the time, just keep him happy. And I’m like, they are more than that. And I think we need to call, call our husbands to more than that, right? And, yeah, into a more beautiful

Jen Wilkin

vision. But even learning, like, learning about how the differences that there are between male and female sex drives like just in a general bell curve relationship, which means that women are always having to be pushed toward a male version of sexuality with no consideration for what their default setting might be, and men are never being pushed toward a you know, there’s no meeting in The middle. It’s nope, your job, because men can’t possibly moderate their own needs, so therefore you have to meet them. And again, like for Jeff and me, this was not devastating, because he is a good man, and we had great communication and and none of that, but, but, but I, I have sat with so many women you know who’ve dealt with this and they think there’s something wrong with them, yes, yes, or they’re not Christian enough. Because

Courtney Doctor

not Christian enough,

Unknown Speaker

they’re carrying that weight that’s that’s a huge

Courtney Doctor

weight to carry. It’s a huge weight to carry your husband’s morality. Yeah,

Melissa Kruger

I think most marriages go through difficult seasons, maybe even cold seasons. You know, where you would say, Wow, I don’t I know I’m choosing to love you, but I’m not sure if I like you right now or just just tough times. And it’s not a day, but it’s months and months and months like, is there any advice for a woman who’s listening, who’s maybe in that season, and she’s thinking, this is how it will always be, and I’ve just got to deal with this. Is there any wisdom advice you would give, and maybe anything you would encourage her toward in that season?

Vanessa Hawkins

Oh, yeah. There are a lot of places I want to go with that. But I think, well, one, I think there is a sense of not enoughness or a discontentment that I hear not just from married women, that I hear from women, that I hear from people. I think it’s a part of, you know, it’s that whole, you know, already, not yet. It’s, you know, it’s meeting Christ. It’s that void that only he feels, and so it’s needing him to satisfy us in that way. But I also think for me, some of those seasons have been my own need for repentance. I think it’s harder for me to experience love if it’s from the Lord, if it’s from my husband, it’s from whomever, when I have some hard heartedness. And so some of those seasons for me have been, you know, not falling out of love, as David Tripp would say, but falling out of repentance and needing to needing to say, I’m sorry, needing to do an assessment of my own heart and how I’m experiencing, you know my husband, how I’m experiencing love or not experiencing it because of what’s going on in my own heart. So that’s been for me, that’s been some of what’s happened, needing to, needing to, to say, I’m sorry, needing to move towards my husband even when I’m not feeling like moving towards them. Yeah, that’s good. I

Courtney Doctor

think part of it is the word you use seasons. And I think that can be extended far beyond marriage. I think about that. I tell my children that all the time, that you know when, when you’re in a season of being completely overwhelmed or really discouraged or whatever it is, the feeling, I picture that at the bottom of a circle, but it’s cyclical, and things come back around like you’re not always going to feel that way. And I think, I think marriage is so, so similar to that, or the seasons are very similar in that it’s, it’s probably not going to stay that way. I mean, if you’re moving towards each other, if you’re doing the hard work, if you’re doing what you said that that, yeah, there are there. I have gone through discouraging seasons, and yet they they warrant the final word. They things did? You know, the sun does come out again and and sometimes it’s not how we expect it. But I’ll tell you what I’ve seen beauty in the unexpected. You know, I want the change of season to look a certain way, and then, and then the Lord might surprise me and say, no, it’s actually going to look this way, but, but there’s beauty still ahead. I think I would say to the woman who is in the season of discouragement, despair, little bit of darkness, hang in there and keep praying and working towards move towards the Lord, move towards your husband. And there’s beauty yet to come.

Jen Wilkin

Yeah, I think that Christians in general are have a Pollyanna complex with regard to relationships and and I would say that’s the full spectrum of relationships, God, Self, neighbor, and so we think that because we have the Holy Spirit in us, that we will never doubt God, that we will never doubt A spouse, that we will never doubt a child or a neighbor. And the truth is, we all know a relationship that has gone through a season, and when it comes to marriage, we think it’s not allowed. Our marriages are not allowed to go through low points. They’re not allowed to go through points of just feeling off. But you know, parents will, if they’re candid. I remember my stepmother telling me, you know, you’re always going to love your kids, but you’ll go through protracted seasons where there’ll be one you just don’t like. Yeah, and I wanted to go, am I? You

Courtney Doctor

know? Yeah. I’m

Jen Wilkin

sure she did. Yeah, you know, I’m sure she did. Maybe it’s happening right now. She likes me right now, but, but I think once you can say, because, you know, think about the problem we have, even in the church, of admitting that we go through seasons of doubt with God like it’s one of the things I try to talk about when I can, is that I’ve gone through a couple of years of doubt. We’ve had conversations with women who are like, I’m doing outward facing ministry, and I’m wrestling with my own set of doubts, and they think it disqualifies them or means they’re not really a Christian. And so I think when it comes to marriage, remembering that doubt or distance are actually natural features of any relationship takes some of the power away from it when you’re when you’re in it,

Courtney Doctor

and we’re all like, Doubting Thomas, yeah? But look at what Jesus did. He didn’t shame him or send him away. He’s like, come closer, yeah, bring your doubts. Like, just and be with I mean, that whole thing of, yeah, how we handle when? Because all of us right, every but whoever it is we’re doubting, we all go through those seasons. I think we need to be reminded of just the tender compassion of the Lord with our doubts well,

Melissa Kruger

and I think it’s why we make vows. Yes. I mean, that’s a really good point. Presupposes This isn’t your roommate, right? I did make vows to move in with my girlfriends. Yeah? It was like, Yeah, this. Isn’t great. I’m out of here, yeah, you know. And, but this says I’m choosing, before God and these people to say, in sickness and in health. And, you know, those are, those are real things. You realize sickness can really change a person, yeah, yeah. And the most wonderful person when they’re really, dealing with cancer or dealing with things. And yeah, I mean, you could say, Hey, I didn’t sign up for this, but yeah, we say, I’m gonna be with you in those moments. I can remember when I threw up every day at the beginning of all of my pregnancies. And sweet Mike, I mean, I can remember he would come and he would just put a glass of water beside me, and yeah, it was just that. It was him choosing to be there and then back away. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker

was he wearing, like,

Courtney Doctor

exactly I know, you know, I know. And I sometimes think even I remember in earlier in marriage, when we were having just a lot more conflict, a lot more struggles. I would think so Vanessa and my husband are besties, and so she’ll affirm this about Craig. But I remember thinking, You know what? And it’s kind of what you started with, that faith becoming sight is I was like, I know he will be the one that on my deathbed. If you know that’s the way the Lord arranges it, he will be, I mean, he will be like, so compassionate and faithful to the end, right? And so sometimes it is, I think, even looking ahead, to be saying, Who am I going to be at that moment that’s and who are we married to in that moment? But, yeah, the beauty of like, what, what does a vow mean? And how do we honor that and

Vanessa Hawkins

that the vow is before the God who holds the Union together. Yes, is everything, because we would mess it up. We do mess it up, and somehow, you know, he is able to keep us together, and he is able to hold us together and to keep us repenting and moving towards each other. And so,

Melissa Kruger

yeah, I don’t know if you all have any verses that you kind of hoped for your marriage. I’m going to read this. This was, this was something I think we talked about Ken Romero when we talked about it, but it’s kind of that part, not of a vow, but I think it’s how the scriptures encourage us, because I think we tend to only go to marriage passages when we’re talking about marriage, rather than know one another. Passages, right, yes, right, yes. And so this is Romans, 12, nine. Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil. Hold fast to what is good. Yeah, I’m so often switched this. I’m gonna hold fast what is not good in you. Love. Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor. Do not be slothful and zeal. Be fervent in spirit. Serve the Lord, rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer. Contribute to the needs of the saints and seek to show hospitality. So good. And, yeah, that was kind of this, like, can our home be this? And even maybe, I mean, I think one, one thing, you know, as a family, picking, what do we want our home to be about like, and maybe it’s first Corinthians 13, I don’t know. Do you all have verses that have really kind of said, hey, I want to be aiming toward that in our marriage.

Vanessa Hawkins

I think just personally, my husband’s such a kind man. He’s such a patient man. You know? Not too given, not too much in this amen corner over here, not too much. So for me, just even looking at our conflicts, I’m always thinking that what gets offended is usually not humility, it’s pride, and that’s you know. And so for me, it’s always having this standard before me that is Christ, that who humbled himself until the point of death, death, even death on the cross. And it’s having that type of humility when I’m engaging even in conflict, to be able to see myself, to be able to serve Him, to be able to move towards him, and so, and it’s the standard we’re both called to. It’s It’s Christ, and so it’s to be able to love like that.

Courtney Doctor

I love that. I’ve told this story before, but Craig and I were in a conflict, and just in my daily reading, I happen to be in James four, and it starts off, what causes quarrels and fights among you. And I thought it’s literally on pages. It’s going to have Craig’s name in the Word of God, like it’s gonna be like, Craig pauses, quarrels and fights among you, Craig, but that whole verse goes on, humble yourself therefore. And I was like, oh, you know, and it’s not and, and I’ve really learned through the years not to ask the Lord to humble me, but to humble myself first like two, because I the LORD. Will Humble, yeah, but I would rather do the work and go before the Lord and say, let me humble myself, rather than need to be humbled and so. But that that does I think about that. As you know, might have said it to be funny, but I think about it a lot in that of what is causing quarrels and fights among us. It is my pride. It’s always yes, so if I will humble myself, so that’s my marriage first. James four

Jen Wilkin

Ben Stewart, who has written a lot on dating and marriage that I really like a lot of his advice, but he makes the point most of marriage is just hanging out, yeah, and so it’s like, be sure you marry someone who you want to hang out with but what that reminds me of is that while there are very few passages in the New Testament dealing specifically with marriage, we have 343 times that the word adelphoi occurs brothers and sisters, and that what we forget when we get married is we’re like, well, Now we’ve moved away from phileo to, you know, just romantic love is what we’re thinking about here to Eros, and it’s just patently false. During COVID, I went down a wormhole watching the Indian matchmaking series. It was about arranged marriages. And I’m like, I can arrange marriages for my children. This is the this is the way. But they would interview these couples who had been married for like, 50 years, and they would say, you know, I knew him for 25 minutes before we got married. And then she would talk about, you know, the man I thought I was marrying was completely different from the man I ended up marrying. And she said, we’ve been married 50 years, and he’s my soul mate, which I thought in our culture, we forget, and the Bible even tells us, like in the New Jerusalem, you’re worried about being married, Yeah, but you’re going to be brothers and sisters free turn. Now, that’s my paraphrase. And so what if

Courtney Doctor

we children again? That, right,

Jen Wilkin

right, right? Yes, let’s do the arranged marriage. But also, like, if we saw, if we if we focused on the one another’s more than you’re supposed to be doing this in your role, or you’re supposed to be doing, you know, then, then our marriages would would begin to function in an eternal way. I think, not to sound Mormon. That sounded a little Mormon guys, but you know what I’m saying, like that, we would be looking toward the the eternal relationships

Courtney Doctor

well. And when you make a list of what all the verb that precedes one another in the New Testament, I can’t remember how many times I thought you’re 54 ish, okay. I thought it were closer to, yeah, yeah. I thought it was more, but it’s and you, then you write the verb, pray for, love, forgive, bear with honor, like it’s all of these, I mean, and you make a list of that, I think if we were living that those one another is out in our marriage, they would be

Melissa Kruger

beautiful, like we keep talking about what we need to do in marriage,

Unknown Speaker

what they need to do.

Jen Wilkin

I do, think it’s worth mentioning. Like, before we stop this conversation, I know you’re thinking the same thing. We recognize that not all marriages are in a place that is bearing any resemblance to the relationship between Christ and His Church. And I think we would all agree that there are marriages that actually become a desecration of that image. And so if you’re a woman who’s listening to this, and you’re in an abusive spot, if you’re in danger, our message to you is not just stick it out. We want to make sure that you get good counseling, good help, absolutely.

Melissa Kruger

And that was going to actually close with this question. So maybe not in an abusive marriage or but maybe in a marriage where you’re the only one walking with the Lord. We are all blessed to be in marriages with spouses who who want to live in line of Scripture. So even, yeah, we have the the ability to go to our husbands and say, Hey, I mean, you know, I don’t see that this in you like we have that same

Courtney Doctor

they’re good men, yeah, each one of and

Melissa Kruger

there are brothers in Christ, yes, right? Yes, you know. But there are a lot of women who are married to people who aren’t walking with the Lord, who maybe aren’t interested in working on their marriage, who may be caught in sins that are damaging their marriage. What advice would y’all just, we’ll close on this. What advice would you give that woman who’s maybe just she still wants her marriage to work? It’s not a marriage you know, that she needs to exit for safety, yeah, for safety, or even more reasons that you know, right? But, but it’s just really hard, and she feels alone in it.

Vanessa Hawkins

Yeah? Wow. I think the community is big. As far as having healthy community, healthy friendships, people who can walk with you and people who can love you and care for you in that season, is helpful, but also it’s, it’s, it’s a call to pray for the. Husband, and it’s a part of his sanctification. And yours is that we are called to pray for our husbands in those hard periods and when it’s not a hard period. But yeah, it’s a part of the call. I don’t know. Courtney, what would you say?

Courtney Doctor

I would say, step into the light and so be known. Be known in the context of your local church. And I think the situations that we’re talking about are so varied that it’s hard to speak specifically, yeah, to that person, because there are times that it’s dangerous, or there are times that it is, it is just grievously damaging. And so I would say just if it’s hidden, if you, if nobody knows this about you or your marriage or your spouse, step into the light and be known and let the let the community, the context of your local church, help you discern and walk through the hard times. Yeah, that’s good.

Jen Wilkin

Many churches set aside benevolence funds for people to get at least a few counseling sessions. So I would say, ask him to go with you. If he says, No, go by yourself. Oh, that’s good. Go to counseling. And if your church won’t, doesn’t have money to pay for something like that, I would say, be careful that you don’t receive counsel from someone with no training, yes, yes, that’s good, because there are a lot of well meaning people in ministry who who don’t know how to walk into a situation like that, and might think that just because of their role, they are supposed to so yeah, and

Melissa Kruger

I would just give just one word of hope. I mean, we are not static. People. People always say, oh, people don’t change. You get what you get, you know, when you get married. And we believe in the power of the Holy Spirit. So even if they are not walking with the Lord today, I think we can pray with hope that the Lord will transform their hearts and and I always like to say to people, don’t borrow trouble 10 year trouble. Because what I think we tend to say in our minds is, I can’t do this for 10 more years. I think, ask for the grace to say, Lord, will you help me do this today? Yeah, that’s helped me walk with a husband who’s not loving me. Well, help me walk with a husband who doesn’t love Jesus. Help me. Yeah, I’m bearing the spiritual weight of our family alone. Help me do it today. I think it’s when I look forward too long or, you know, whatever is hard in our life, we think I can’t do this for 10 years. He hasn’t asked you yet. And maybe, maybe his spirit will will intervene and change. Because we really do see, I think all of us, even in those hard places, marriages, can change and grow and become amazingly different than they than they began.

Vanessa Hawkins

And here’s the thing, and when you take on praying for your spouse, that change might be, you know, pretty immediate. It’s often not. But what will end? What What will inevitably happen? Either he will change where the Lord will change you and give you the grace to endure, right? And so, and that’s, that’s part of the that’s a part of the prayer, you know, that’s part of going before the Lord and taking someone is that he changes you and gives you the grace. Yes,

Courtney Doctor

yes. Demolish the idol of this fairy tale marriage. That’s what? Yeah, yeah. Beautiful thing. Yeah.

Melissa Kruger

Well, thanks so much for this discussion and really going deep on these things of marriage, because this is, this is tough for a lot of women, and it’s often a place you can’t feel like you can’t talk about with with other people. But I’m going to ask one deep dish question for both of you, ladies, can you share with us what’s a what’s a mundane, we’ve kind of got a little bit of this from you. Alright, what’s just a mundane task you love doing with your husband? Okay?

Vanessa Hawkins

I mean, and it is truly mundane. But just one of the things just in our New York City apartment that we didn’t ever do in our house is that from my closet, which is where my laundry is, my washer and dryer, it just the clothes go from the dryer to the bed, and so he ends up standing on one side of the bed, and I’m standing on the other side of the bed, and we’re folding laundry, and it’s mindless work. So we get to just talk about each other, and we just get to hang out. And it’s, it’s it’s simple, it’s some it’s Monday, but it’s kind of sweet.

Jen Wilkin

That’s precious, that’s nice, that’s right, yeah, we love to go to the gardening center and wander around. And also we like to identify trees. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker

identify trees.

Jen Wilkin

Maple. He’s the one who knows them all. It’s me. It’s sort of like a little pop quiz for me. I know plants. He knows trees and birds, and

Melissa Kruger

she’s not lying. And your kids know this too. Oh, you’re like a whole family of it plants people.

Courtney Doctor

I love amazing. Yeah, I

Melissa Kruger

love it. I love it. Well, thanks so much for joining us on this episode of the deep dish. We look forward to more deep conversations, and we hope you’ll join us next time.